00:00
We now as parents, right? Like we’re trying to be so safe with who our children are around, right? Because statistics show us that whatever percentage it is, it’s people that you know. That molest your children, that rape your children, that take advantage of your children. It’s not the boogeyman driving the white van that snatches them. Like, yes, that happens too. But what’s more common is people already in your life, people at your church.

00:29
people at your school. Welcome back to the Shirley Show. am your host Shirley. Our discussions are going to be ranging from personal life experiences, infidelity, trust, forgiveness, sex, heartbreak, self-love, and so much more. Let’s dive in, pull up a seat, make sure you’re cozy, and get ready to be challenged and encouraged while you learn with me, your virtual girlfriend.

00:56
Welcome back to another episode of Shirley’s show. And today we’re going to be touching base on something that Kira and I have never really talked about. I had a few of my interviewees that have experienced this type of situation either personally, but not necessarily in their relationship. So today we’re going to be talking about an episode or I should say a show that is right now on Hulu.

01:26
and it’s called Betrayal. Betrayal is actually a podcast. Andrea is the, I’m thinking the executive producer of the podcast. And I think she had an opportunity to do this show with Hulu, which was great because these people actually, just like mine, had written into her podcast because they all had experienced this.

01:51
traumatic situation in this relation in their relationship because you know on Shirley’s show we talk about different dynamics that are going on in relationships because as we all know shit ain’t easy out here trying to maintain a healthy happy relationship and at this day and age with Social media I do believe it creates a fake message and image

02:19
And to digress a little bit, it’s interesting that we’re talking about this because right now while Kira and I are recording this podcast and I have to bring this up, you’ve heard about the Kristi and Desmond. Desmond. Yes, I have to digress a little bit. I’m so sad about that. Honestly, I’m so sad about it. Are you really sad, Kira? Be transparent.

02:45
I really, really enjoyed them. I really love Christy. Like I liked watching her. I’ve been following her on TikTok for a long time. They just built that house. And it just, honestly, if I’m gonna be honest, it made me sad. It made me feel like discouraged. Like everybody cheats. Like no matter what we do, no matter all the things that we try to do, they’re still gonna cheat.

03:08
So that’s where I’m at right now. But I am genuinely disappointed in like, dang, that sucks for them. Okay. For both of them. For both of them. I never… Go ahead. Oh, and I was gonna say, I think there is another layer too where I think, and I’m not 100 % sure about this, but I know that they are Jehovah’s Witnesses. And I believe infidelity is something that can get you disfellowshipped from the church. So there’s a lot…

03:38
that may transpire with this situation like for them personally. So I think it’s sad. First of all, that’s news to me because I didn’t know they were Jehovah’s Witnesses, but of course I didn’t follow them. Is that something they shared on social media? Yeah, because they didn’t celebrate like holidays and things like that. So they shared like things that they did instead when everyone’s celebrating holidays. Okay. So in my personal opinion, because I didn’t follow these two people,

04:07
I used to see their clips pop up, you know, in my algorithm on social media. And the cute part is I’m always like, this girl’s always doing stupid ass shit. She’s so silly. She is very silly. And, you know, her husband’s just sitting there like, oh my God, this is so embarrassing, blah, blah, blah. I can’t say that I’m sad because they weren’t people that I followed. But I can say when I see relationships fall apart, that is what makes me sad.

04:36
Not them particularly, but I’m sad when relationships fall apart. But of course I didn’t follow them, so I didn’t know what their content consisted of. And that’s one of the major reasons why even when I post on social media, I do this podcast, I try not to make it sound like shit is all happy over here. know, it’s funny because when Kaleef and I are recording, I feel like Mariah,

05:06
who records our podcast sees like behind the scenes shit that other people don’t see. Because if I’m pissed off at them, she could probably tell by my body language. Or if I say something she could probably tell, but she edits and she cuts. She just makes it look so Let me make this look a little bit better. Yeah, because I realized she had did this on one of our episodes where we got into a little, I said something and then he was like, no.

05:35
It was a soft little simple dispute and I was like, look how she smoothly cut that shit out. So even in the editing, the background, I see what’s taking place. So this is one of the reasons why I always tell people in the nicest way that I can, please don’t sit here and idolize me on social media. I am human. I make mistakes. I am imperfect. I don’t have the solution to it all. And you know, like I say on the website, I’m not a relationship.

06:04
a coach, I’m not a counselor, I’m not a psychiatrist. Don’t give me names that I didn’t ask for. I’m just Shirley and I just sit behind this mic and talk about shit I’ve been through in my relationship and what works and what doesn’t work. And I think Kira can agree with that. But with them, those two, whenever I see them, it just looked like perfection all the time. But of course I didn’t follow them, Kira. So I don’t know what their channel really typically looked like, if they ever had one-on-one with their fans.

06:34
if there was a different side of them that people were able to see. But that’s the prime example of you just can’t always believe what you see on social media because who knows how long these people have been going through what they’re going through. Because we all know when we hear something in a relationship at the time we hear it, it could have been a year ago that they were already going downhill, but we had no idea. And because of the large

07:02
fan base that they have, this is how these two make their income. It’s not like when you go to a nine to five and you can really truly shut that out. When you’re an influencer and you have now shared a very large portion of your life with social media, that’s how you make your money. So when a brand reaches out to you and you’re pissed off at him today, now you guys need to find a way to make this work for the brand. Now it’s going to be an interesting dynamic to see.

07:32
how they are going to part ways the way they have set up their platform. But, know, in all due respect, regardless what ends up happening, and they do go their separate ways, I hope that they can do it amicably because they have two children, so they have to figure out how to make it work. I hope they both seek some help, even individually, because obviously decisions have been made from

08:01
what we are hearing. I don’t know what they’ve done together behind the scenes, which they don’t need to share with us. But I hope they get the help that they individually need and don’t immediately jump into something right away.

08:17
But yeah, that was interesting when I’m like talking about betrayal, but I guess that’s what my whole podcast is about, right? Shitty shit that happens in relationships. Shitty shit that happens in relationships. That would have been a good topic, right?

08:36
But so we are going to be talking about today, Betrayal. Betrayal is a show again that is on Hulu right now. I’m not sure if it’s on any of the other networks, but it’s on Hulu. That’s where I’ve been watching it. There are three seasons, season one, season two, season three. We are going to be talking a little bit about each season, but basically not so we don’t spill too much tea. The whole show.

09:05
And each season is about how each spouse engaged in sexual assault towards children. So of course I do have to say this is a sensitive topic. I do have to definitely watch my verbiage because I don’t want this to be offensive towards anybody. And we’re just going to softly have a conversation about each season.

09:33
Yeah, this is definitely the trigger warning. We’re going to have a conversation about each season. And the first one we’re going to look at is, let me bring my phone closer. So season one is Jennifer Faison. I hope I am pronouncing her name right. And she was married to Spencer Herron. Now, just to give a little brief recap.

10:03
Jennifer and Spencer went to college together. That’s where they met. They dated for a short period of time, but then they each went their separate ways. Spencer went and had a family, got married, had children, but Jennifer, on the other hand, she really focused on her professional life, had a career. Of course she dated, but she never got married, never had children, and she moved across town. So we’re going to fast forward.

10:33
Um, Spencer ended up reaching out to Jennifer and she was traveling for work. So they ended up meeting up, reconnected that reconnection. We’re going to fast forward sparked into them getting married. So this is Jennifer’s first marriage. Now the fucked up part about it is after all these years, this woman had waited, you know, she connects with her high school sweetheart and then she has to go through this situation.

11:03
So of course, Jennifer reached out to the Betrayal podcast and I’ll put that podcast information too on the website. So you guys could definitely go listen to her podcast and also the information for the show on the website. But to fast forward, Spencer is a teacher and before he started

11:31
any sexual assault with the student at the school. Spencer was a repeated offender when it came to infidelity. He was sleeping with anybody and everybody. It got to the point where it got so bad that Jennifer had to go get tested for an STD and she found out she had gotten chlamydia from his infidelity and the relationship ended.

12:00
because Spencer got arrested from the sexual assault from the student on the show on season one, they do interview the student. She comes on the show. She does speak. Um, the brave thing is, you know, she was a little reluctant at first, but she was strong enough to share her message. Because again, when you share your message, you don’t know who you’re helping out there.

12:28
So that was a positive thing that she was able to do and not allow herself to be, all the negative comments and stuff people had to say out there. So the first thing that comes to mind here is, and I think your comment on this is sometimes what people fail to realize what happens with infidelity, especially when it becomes sexual, is the viral diseases out there that you could get. And people don’t stop to think about that.

12:58
when we make this poor choice of ours that we do make and you don’t use protection. And there’s so many things that can happen when you’re spreading bodily fluids and you’re not thinking of the long-term consequences. So what are your thoughts from season one?

13:18
From that particular episode, I felt really bad for the wife. Obviously, I felt really bad for the student. I think the student was taken advantage of, obviously. She was groomed. And she didn’t even understand, I think, the gravity of what she was doing. Because she also got an STD.

13:48
That I don’t remember because remember, did she get one as well? Yeah, I think that’s why she initially had told her parents because she needed to go to the doctor about what was going on. Okay. Okay. And I just remember thinking like, this is so sad. Like this is such a young girl, right? Like, yes, she made a decision to sleep with a married man, but she’s also a child. I’m not going to hold children to the same standard that I hold adults. Right. I think the dad or

14:18
husband. See, I’m calling him a dad because it’s so creeped out. The husband, just having so many sexual partners. mean, surely when they were like running down the list of how many people he was sleeping with, like he was sleeping with multiple people a day, then going home to sleep with his wife, also having sexual encounters in his home, in his marital bed. It’s just like the level of depravity, disrespect, disgust.

14:48
that I felt hearing that story. was just like, I can’t believe this woman is still standing, right? Like the emotional toll that that must have taken on her and also the physical toll. And was that the same couple that had the bar or something or a restaurant and he was having, yeah, he was having sexual encounters at the restaurant. He was paying for sex. It was like all the things. The business that they had together, he was finding people to hook up with at the bar.

15:18
He had a problem. What do you think called them? I wish like two, there’s, I wish we could also talk to ex-wives. Sometimes I feel like that. If I had talked to my husband’s ex-wife, I probably would not have married him. you know what saying? did you tell me Adrian was married before? Maybe I forgot. Yes, he definitely was married before. Maybe, you know what? I’m not gonna say you didn’t tell me because this is.

15:46
There’s some information it comes in. so shocked. leaves out. Kira, you may have told me and I literally forgot. He was married before, but they didn’t have any children together. Okay. And sometimes I feel like you only know the story that person tells you, the guy, right? The same way with this woman. She only knew what he was telling her about why they got divorced. She never talked to the ex-wife.

16:14
Had she talked to the ex-wife, she would have maybe found out, oh, he’s a serial cheater and a sex addict. Like, don’t marry him. He has problems. But then she still could have married him and been like, oh, she’s bitter. She’s just saying that because she doesn’t. So even if we had the information, there’s no guarantee that we wouldn’t move forward. But there’s parts of it where I feel like, dang, it would be so nice to just be like, hey, can we chat? Like, can you tell me what went on? Why you guys are getting divorced? He was crazy. He was so crazy.

16:42
The amount of sex that he was having is not normal and he definitely had a problem. And to put so many people at risk for diseases that could eventually kill them and severely impact their life is so incredibly selfish. It’s very selfish. And the part I wanted to say was like, Jennifer waited. She didn’t get married and refresh me because

17:10
I watched it a little bit longer and I just refreshed myself in pieces. Jennifer was already in her late thirties when she got married, think. Yes. thirties when she got married. Yeah. So she waited all this time to get married to this man for only to go through this. And I think the marriage was, I think it was less than five years by the time from the marriage to all this came out, wasn’t it? Less than five years. I don’t remember. I don’t remember the timeframe from when she got married.

17:39
to when he was arrested. But the interesting part, Jennifer even says on the show is, I had no idea. So Spencer was wearing different coats. And I know some people will listen like, didn’t you see the sign Jennifer? How could you have not noticed that something was going on? Sometimes some people are very good chameleons. And you don’t realize that anything is happening. So he would.

18:08
present himself like this wonderful husband that was treating her like the queen that she is. And she just had no idea because it wasn’t till the school incident is when she found out about all these other women. So that’s the part that is interesting when people are like, how do you, like sometimes, you know, I’m not going to say you don’t know because there are some people don’t know how to play the two roles.

18:38
but there are some people that play it very well and they disguise the fact that they’re cheating and you have no idea. And it’s not any spouse’s job to play detective. Let’s be for real, I’m in this relationship with you. I’m entering in a trustworthy situation. I’m assuming you are going to do right by me. This is the type of situation where…

19:04
you shouldn’t give me the feeling that I should have to go through your phone or I should have to do this or I should have to do that. And Spencer played that role well. Because no one’s getting married with the intention to have to check up on the other person, right? We’re not thinking that we have to do that or that’s a requirement. I think some people are really masters of deception and he was really good at what he was doing.

19:32
Yeah, you did say something interesting, which applies to all these three seasons here and our own relationship. We don’t get into marriage to break up, but why do you think it’s a conversation that people don’t have? Why do you think we live in a world where people like, I’m going to be with you forever? Hmm. You know, and in reality, you don’t know if you’re going to be with me forever.

20:01
Because use myself as an example, I am about to be 43 years old in less than 90 days. I’ve been with this guy since I was 14 years old. Now, of course, he’s not the only man I’ve been with sexually, but he is the only serious relationship that I’ve been in. Can you imagine the individual growth between the two of us? I’m definitely not the same 14 year old. I’m not.

20:30
the same 18 year old, I’m not the same 24 year old. So for us to put in our minds that when we get with someone, we’re going to be with them forever. When we’re young, I do believe at times we’re setting ourselves up for failure. Even now I tell Kaleef, Kaleef, we may separate. And he’d be like, well, I’ll be at your house every day. He says We’re going to be separated, but I’ll be there. I’ll be there. I’ll be there. I said, yeah.

20:58
from a friend’s perspective and then he looks at me with the sly eye like, yeah, okay, you gonna be sliding me a piece of ass. you what I’m saying? Yeah, because I mean, I remember my mom used to tell us all the time, like, y’all brains aren’t fully formed until you’re 26 years old. So you’re not a grownup yet. Your brain isn’t even formed. I’m not taking nothing you say personally. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Like she used to literally tell us that. And so I remember being like,

21:27
knowing like people who are getting married like so young in their twenties. Now, this is not to say those relationships can’t work, but I think what we do is we do a disservice to people before they get married to tell them about the actual realities of marriage. And here I’m going to speak from the perspective of like being in church and being saved and like how sometimes they preach at us premarital sex so hard that then when you’re in your twenties, you’re just like,

21:57
I gotta get married. It’s like, I wanna get married just so can have sex, right? So you rush into this relationship without any real foundation, like any good premarital counseling to really be like, listen, your relationship is gonna have peaks and valleys. It is not going to be this honeymoon state that you’re in all the time. Somebody may get sick, somebody may betray you, somebody may…

22:26
lose their job, you might have financial issues. It’s like, none of that was brought up in my premarital counseling as like, not to scare you, but things understand that like, in life, you’re going to have trouble. So your relationship, your marriage is also going to have trouble. It’s not going to be just this move sailing the whole way. And I think sometimes people get married with the idea of like, oh, it’s gonna be happily ever after.

22:55
Like we see in movies and shows and Disney movies and we’re gonna be together forever. But it was like, no one tells you about the work that has to take place to keep the relationship about the growth that you each are going to do as individuals. Because yeah, just like you said, the 14 year old you is not the same as the 24 year old you is not same as a 34 year old you and will not be the same as the 44 year old you. And I think that is where

23:24
the preparation for marriage is lacking because the expectations are not realistic. And this is not to say that there aren’t people out there who have really good relationships and have really good marriages and don’t have the betrayal aspect, right? But that doesn’t mean that they’re not gonna have other issues. Like they may have someone getting sick, someone who can’t work, other things that can happen that are not even around betrayal.

23:53
But all that to say, I don’t think people should aspire to marriage. And I’m not saying this from a place of being bitter or just because I’m having not a great time in my marriage right now. I’m just really being realistic that I don’t believe that every single person is called to marriage. I think some people should be single and some people should not get married because they do things like this. Now, this guy Spencer was way out of line for

24:24
uh, the infidelity, right? But he was also on another playing field with the predatory behavior and being a pedophile and sleeping with a student. Like these are very huge things. Like, and I don’t know if that’s being clear to like our audience that he slept with a student that he was a teacher or coach at that school while he was cheating on his wife with multiple women.

24:53
and having this relationship with a minor. I think it was a music coach he was, if I’m not mistaken. Yeah, I think it was some kind of like special, but he was very well loved in the community, right? Like he had that business that everyone went to. And this is someone also that I felt like felt untouchable, Shirley. Like I felt like he felt like he could do whatever he want and he would never get caught because he hadn’t been caught for so long.

25:22
But then he tipped the scale when he started going after a child. I mean, that’s insane behavior. It is insane behavior. It’s a little scary because when my children were growing up, I was very particular about where they went, who they were with, and who was coming around. That’s one of the reasons why when

25:51
His aunt would watch my kids. I loved when she was there because she’s very stern. I knew who was coming in and out the house. wasn’t a question of, I have to find her or what was going on? Or did I have to question any of the situation where my kids were going to be? Because where I dropped my kids off is where I picked them up. And, you know, aside primarily for a good portion of the kids’ lives, she was

26:21
watching them. And then of course I would have my mother or his mother watch them. But majority of the time she was the one that was watching the kids. And reasons like this, why I was very stern on where my kids went, who was gonna be there, why they were gonna be there. And I know in the beginning I was like, well, am I being a little too overprotective? But then I would like really catch myself like, fuck that because I don’t want a reason for my children.

26:49
to run into any situation because I didn’t control the situation to the best of my abilities. Now I will say, I have never been involved in a sexual assault from what I’m aware. Well, as a child, have not. There is an incident that we’ll have to touch base later that happened later on in life. But as a child, I’ve never had a sexual assault situation.

27:15
From what I’m aware of, my children has not shared that with us. So I’m assuming they never have had that. I have a good relationship with them. So I believe they would share that with me. But it’s frightening to know what these adult men are out here doing. Now to touch base on something you said, because you know, my brain has always been different from when I was a child. When I was a child, although marriage was important to me,

27:43
But marriage was important to me because of what society told me about marriage, not necessarily what I really truly knew about marriage. It’s what I saw on the TV or what I heard other people talk about. I’ve never went to marriage counseling and you said that marriage counseling doesn’t talk about those things. What exactly does marriage counseling talks about? No, I didn’t say marriage counseling in general. I said mine.

28:11
I that, yeah, I said if you have good pre-marital counseling, it should be preparing you for the peaks and valleys that happen in marriage with the examples that there could be betrayal, there could be someone sick, there could be someone who can’t work, you can have financial difficulties. That marriage is not just going to be this big pretty bubble where we fly away and like we love each other and we’re having sex all the time. Like that’s not realistic.

28:40
In my premarital counseling, from what I remember, it was more, it was biblical, but there was still stuff that wasn’t touched on. More so talking about like how the marriage bed is undefiled. Whatever Adrienne and I decide to do in our marriage bed is our business. That’s the gift of sex that God gave us. So no one can tell us anything that we do is like dirty or.

29:08
disgusting. If me and him are both in agreement on what we want to do in our marriage bed, that’s fine. We talked about finances, how we planned to basically run our household financially. We talked about how, what our plan would be if we had children, how we would plan to raise our children.

29:35
pretty much what we talked about, how to deal with conflict was touched on. But yeah, it wasn’t, and you have to think too, when you’re about to get married and like, I think typically you’re just in this like rose colored bubble, like everything’s so good, he’s so great, he won’t ever do this bad stuff to me. Like you’re not in the mindset of thinking like,

30:04
unless someone brings you down to earth thinking that.

30:09
You know, your marriage could be met with betrayal in two years. Like mine was, do you know what I mean? Like no one was preparing me for that. So I’m saying the way I received the prematural counseling, I think part of it missed the mark. And I’m not saying that my counselors were bad or anything like that. They gave me the information that they thought was best.

30:39
right at that time. Looking back and also like hearing stories like this from the betrayal aspect, we have generally as a society made marriage something to aspire to without giving a realistic view of the work that it takes to sustain a marriage and the things that can come up in it. The betrayal in this situation with Spencer was 100 %

31:08
wrong, you add another layer of betrayal when you are now sleeping with a child. know, pedophilia is a whole different layer. Like this is, this is a lot for this woman to swallow, right? So it’s like, even if she had good premarital counseling, there was nothing that could have prepared her for that. Do you know what I’m saying? So I’m saying there’s parts of it where it’s like, yeah, I feel like some of mine missed the mark.

31:39
But even if they said all the things that I just said, like, I would want to be more prepared for, if something like that had happened to me, there’s no way I think I could have been prepared for that. So it’s just like…

31:54
Yeah, you just never really know who people are, even when you’re married to them. Because like you said earlier, people can be really good chameleons. They can be masters of deception. They can be good at hiding things. And you’re just on the other end clueless until the veil is lifted and you find out what’s going on. Yeah. I mean, it really sums up to no matter how much

32:21
of a Christian you are not, no matter how much you challenge the word, no matter what you do or don’t do, you can’t avoid what the future holds for you. You don’t have control over that. You don’t know what the blueprint of your life is set out to be. And truth be told, the only way in, I would say maybe possibly even trying to avoid any trauma happening to you

32:49
from a relationship standpoint is by staying single, but even death is a trauma. You know what I’m saying? And you can still have trauma with friendships and family relationships. Exactly. You’re not gonna escape it by not being married or not being in a long-term relationship. You’re not gonna escape it. No, because it’s a different type of trauma that you’re experiencing when you’re in a romantic relationship. yeah.

33:16
as opposed to when you’re a monogamous relationship with your friends and with your family. But to sum up, there’s no sum up for season two. We’ll sum up at the end. We’re gonna combine season two and season three together because they are very sim, well, they’re all very similar, but each relationship dynamic is different.

33:43
But the reason I say season two and season three are about the same is because to sum it up, both of the spouses in this season, I’m going to look at my notes here. Both of the spouses in this season.

34:01
took it very close to home. So in season one, in season two, you have wife Ashley Litten, who had two children already by a previous man. Then she found husband, Jason. This is the one that was recording? That’s correct. Yeah. Then she found husband Jason. mad.

34:29
I know she found her husband Jason and things were just going. They were, you know, in their relationship. And basically to sum it up, she found a secret folder on Jason’s website where Jason was computer. Yeah. Sorry. His computer where he was recording the daughter and had images of the daughter, the daughter he had adopted.

34:56
So that’s to sum up season two and season three is very similar. Now season three, it’s interesting that we’re doing this betrayal today with some of the things that we’re hearing about in social media, because did you hear about the doctor in Florida that shot and killed the girlfriend? Supposedly it was over child support. He was a physician that was living in, um,

35:25
In Florida, I forgot what area. It came up on my news because the gentleman was Haitian. So it came up on my Haitian news recording. he shot the doctor, the guy shot someone, or the person shot him? The physician shot the mother of his child. And supposedly we hear it was over child support, but we don’t have all the information quite yet. that’s the reason. The reason I bring that up is to say.

35:52
betrayal, trauma, something bad happening to you, it doesn’t matter what profession you’re in because season three, you have Stacey and Justin. Stacey already had two children before she met Justin and Justin was a pediatric physician and everything was going great. They were living their life and Justin was sexually assaulting her son.

36:19
And the two children are not biological to the men in season two and season three, but you’re in a relationship with a man you’re bringing into your life. You already have children. And then to find out this gentleman is doing this to your children. And these are the trigger warnings. And that’s why I have to be very careful what I say. And this podcast today, I can’t even say I’m here to give advice because I personally have never experienced

36:49
this situation personally as a child. have, my children have not experienced this and I can’t even begin to say I can understand what Ashley and Stacey are going to, going through, but I do know these women are extremely courageous and I applaud them for sharing their story because the amount of encouragement that you need to come on

37:16
national television for everyone to hear your story and scrutinize you and to say mean things. Oh, how did you not know? Did you not see it coming? How did you not understand what was going on? And you know, I don’t mention the children, but both of the children for season two and season three were interviewed. So if you are interested, you could definitely listen to what the children have to say about the situation. But the tragic thing is

37:46
These are everyday women that trusted these men to love them and accept their children. And then they were confronted with this issue. And this is the reason why I enjoy speaking about relationships and speaking about things and topics that people are very uncomfortable bringing up.

38:16
because relationships are not easy, they’re hard. You have to be mentally prepared to understand that I am about to embark in a situation that I wasn’t trained for this, I wasn’t taught for this. I am figuring out how to deal with this situation every day, every week, every month. Why? Because we aren’t taught.

38:45
how to relationship, you know? We’re not taught that in school. We’re not. And again, even if we were given a little bit more tools to navigate the problems that might come up, this is not something that I feel like would be in a book. Like, okay, and just in case your husband wants to molest or rape or film your child,

39:15
Here’s what you do. That’s not even gonna be right. It’s like, there’s parts of it where it’s like, yeah, we wanna be a little bit more prepared, but there is no way to prepare for that. I felt so furious, furious that these men would do that to children, number one, children that trusted them, and then to their wife that also trusted them, because she’s not to blame for the things that happened.

39:45
She didn’t know. And like you said, these people are good at what they do. They know how to hide, they know how to groom, they know how to manipulate situations. And these are children. Children are not meant to navigate the world.

40:02
with the thought and wherewithal that we have as adults, their children. And it’s just so sad. I just felt like the boys, I felt he seemed like he was still carrying a lot of shame. And it made me sad. Like, I was just like, and again, from your other point of like, we now as parents, right? Like we’re trying to be so safe with who our children are around, right?

40:30
because statistics show us that whatever percentage it is, it’s people that you know. That molest your children, that rape your children, that take advantage of your children. It’s not the boogeyman driving the white van that snatches them. Like, yes, that happens too, but what’s more common is people already in your life. People at your church, people at your school, people who are family friends, uncle, play uncle, play aunt, whoever.

40:59
those are the people that do these things. So they’re good at it, right? They’re doing it right under your nose. It was so heartbreaking, Shirley. I was just so upset about the fact that he did that, or they, these multiple men in all these situations.

41:18
who did this to these children and to these families. Yeah, the one season three was very interesting because even in prison he tried to get the son killed. Girl. Mm hmm. That was the one that touched me the most. And when I say touch me, it was helping him. Who was helping him? His his like honor, his grandmother or something. Remember, was it was the woman who was I. So it was living with the wife because the Justin’s parents passed away.

41:49
So the woman who portrayed like his guardian, think she called him the grandmom, but they still…

42:00
They, you know, she had, they did interview the woman and it was hard for me to understand because, okay, I tried to picture myself, okay, she’s not his biological mother, but she was portraying as his mother slash grandma. I don’t really know what role she was playing and she wanted to protect him. But at some point you have to understand.

42:28
There is another child involved in this. You have to cut the foolishness out and now protect that child because this man is grown. He understands right from wrong and he’s grooming this child. And, you know, it would be situations where he would invite this, have the son invite the friends over and then he would make, he would blackmail him.

42:52
So that season three was the most touching for me because Stacey.

43:00
Stacey was just really taken back by it because she had the husband and then she had this woman. This woman was in her house and she was protecting the husband, so that was also hard because after he was taken in, the woman was still in the house, so the husband was contacting her while she was living in the house, so that was an interesting dynamic for her to get through. Now, her older daughter…

43:28
I applaud her 100 % because she is now in law school, I think, don’t quote me, or she’s a paralegal. I forget which one it was, and she’s advocating for her mom, definitely on her mom’s side, and she’s speaking up for her mom being an additional voice. So season three was very touching for me because the young man, they interviewed him and he looked hurt. He looked extremely

43:58
He looked really hurt. He was still carrying, uh, excuse me, I’m tired. He was still carrying like shame from that whole situation. It’s like, that’s not your shame to carry. Meanwhile, the guy like had no shame. was just like, I’ll get him killed. Yeah.

44:19
That’s what he was doing. That’s exactly what he was doing. what, what is your like final, like what’s your takeaway overall about how like, just don’t really know people.

44:31
That’s how I felt. like, ugh, this is making me feel like I don’t trust people. Obviously I’m in a different space, right? So I’m trying to navigate that too, but it just made me feel like, gosh, we can try to do all the things right and something bad can still happen.

44:50
I can’t say I don’t trust people. Okay, so the younger version of Shirley, when I was entering into relationship, I thought of things very differently. I wasn’t, my mind wasn’t as bright as it is now. So I didn’t think beyond like, that’s my man. That’s all I knew, you know? Like I didn’t think of anything else.

45:20
Now the older version of Shirley, if I was to, if Kalifa and I were to ever separate and I had to date again, I think love is a great thing. think love is necessary. I don’t want my podcast or anybody else’s podcast to feel as though you can’t love and you can’t find a great person and a partner. But I do believe that you need to be cautious. You need to be aware.

45:50
Don’t be afraid to ask questions. before we started and we had a little conversation, I was like, well, don’t you ask questions? You were like, I don’t really care. But I feel like when you’re going into a relationship, you can’t feel as though you are prying. Listen, sir, I’m tell you something a little funny just to make this interesting. So of course I was in the galley having galley therapy.

46:19
I’m always the therapist and everyone’s always regurgitating to me. I don’t know why. Maybe because I am nosy and I’m asking questions and people don’t do the same to me. So it is what it is. So I’m in the galley, we chit chatting. So the person told me that the person said that

46:44
They have to wear a condom because it was like an open relationship with their wife. So their wife was okay with them having sex outside of the marriage, but they had to wear a condom. You know, nosy Shirley. You know what I said? You over, you walked in on this conversation? No, we were having the conversation. So it developed over time on a two day trip.

47:12
on a two day trip girl, I’ve already found out a lot. So me being the nosy person I am, I said, are you guys having oral sex?

47:26
She said, yeah, so what’s the purpose of a condom if it’s no, and then she said, you know, I never thought about it that way. Well, I do, because why is he wearing a condom if his tongue is all in your vagina? Right, because he’s probably still doing that to other people, which means you can still get whatever he’s doing.

47:44
So this is me always like thinking outside the box, thinking a very scenario. And I don’t mean to discuss anybody, but this is a mature podcast. So if you can’t handle these types of things, maybe you shouldn’t listen. But this is what comes to mind when you’re in an open relationship, because if that’s the case, then it should be just penis and vagina, nothing else. Because if you talk about you need to wear a condom, then so you can’t do nothing else to me. But this is my concept of when you’re dating, ask questions.

48:14
You need to ask all types of stuff, sir. I need to know what was your past relationships life share everything with me because I need to be able to make a sound decision if I want to have a future with you or if I want this to be sex with benefits. People are adults. They could choose to do whatever they want to do, but give me a choice. And this is what happens with infidelity. You don’t give me a choice. I’m I’m 100 % in agreement with you.

48:42
The thing that we were talking about earlier was not in the relational. Where? The thing when we were talking about, I didn’t ask this person a question. Oh, no, I was just using that as an example of ask questions. But the other thing is you can still ask questions and people can lie. That’s true too. You can ask questions and people can lie. We can give them all the benefit of the doubt and ask the questions and trust what they’re saying and they lie.

49:10
They can, people can lie because there’s no perfect formula for this. There’s none. There’s none. There’s no, it’s like all we have to do, I mean, all we can do is try to believe the best about the person. Be wise, use wisdom, ask the questions like you’re saying, and then try to trust like it’ll all work eventually work out. Yeah.

49:38
There’s no guarantees, like, and it’s just those situations are so, like, I feel like those are, uh, just the…

49:50
like, worst case scenarios. There was also that girl on TikTok, and I don’t think you’re a TikTok girl, but she was, I can’t remember what it was called, something about, I think it was Dutch, something. She was basically with this guy for so long, and it was all financial infidelity. Like, he lied about how much money he had, he was borrowing money from her friends, he was making up fake investments, and he was really- about that one.

50:20
I can’t remember what it’s called. It was like big on TikTok a while ago. He was using the money to basically gamble. And she thought she was with this like guy that was well off and like had all this money. She, she buys a house with him. She gets married to him. It was all lies. he had no money? None. How did they manage to buy a house when all the documentation you got to show?

50:50
I would have been like, what? Girl, what? And then he said he borrowed money from the friends? Yeah, the thing is, it’s like he was robbing Peter to pay Paul. So he like, I have this investment company. So it looks like I have all this money. Gotcha. And then I gamble it away. I don’t actually invest it. I don’t actually do anything with it. I just float it and move it place to place.

51:13
yeah, that was another crazy one. I do feel like there’s some layers of hers where like you were saying she needed to ask more questions and she didn’t. Now this is not to like victim blame her, but I think that is a really important part of dealing with someone and like getting to know them and like asking questions. But then I’m also here to let you know you can ask the questions and they’ll still lie, so.

51:38
Well, you know, there’s no perfect formula. can ask the question. still they can still lie. But there are.

51:48
You still do. I know we just sound too negative Nancy’s right? Like I I’m I’m trying to I’m trying to be like, yeah, you can do all the right things and come together and it’d be good. Now it’s like, we’re speaking from life experience to write like there might be someone out there who’s having a great relationship who hasn’t had any like big major things happen. And I love that for you. I love that for them. I think we’re speaking to the realistic part of relationships where like

52:16
it’s not always gonna be sunshine and rainbows. So- there’s still like, example, Kaleef and I, sometimes Kaleef, Kaleef, sometimes Kira, I sit and tell myself like, I really pat myself on the back. Now don’t get me wrong. There’s not a week that goes by where I don’t look at Kaleef like you get my nerves, you getting on my nerves. But I really appreciate where we have come in life because we are really truly-

52:45
even after the trauma. there is life after death in certain situations, not every situation. Now, if this man was out here pedophiling and raping, the conversation would look different, but there’s only infidelity in our relationship. I can’t, I have to, know, fix some of the words that come out because the auntie’s uncle’s out there. I don’t want them to come for me. So there is life after death based on…

53:12
certain situations. There are certain situations that you do have to walk away from if it doesn’t serve you any longer. And that’s not a bad thing. That really is not a bad thing. You live and you learn in life. I do still believe in love. think love is a great thing. And I do believe people should still date. Just think of Shirley, be nosy, ask questions. Like Kira said, they may lie. Okay. But you know, figure out what

53:40
Connect the dots and see if everything makes sense. Asking questions will also help you figure out if they can keep up with their lie. Remember that because people can lie, but if you consistently ask the right questions and you stay on top of them and remember the last thing they said and connect all your dots, you can figure out if they’re lying or not because ultimately not everybody can keep up with their lies and there’s always gonna be a slip up some way somehow in something they’re telling you.

54:09
So please don’t take this as you should love. Love is a great thing. You should still fall in love, find somebody to spend your life with, but move cautiously. Date with intention. Date with intention. You want to be married or you want to be in a long-term relationship, then date with intention. Yes. Kier and I will have to cover another podcast discussion when it comes to our different viewpoints in life, although we’re really good friends. Like y’all know, she’s my Christian friend.

54:38
Um, because you know, she’s, she’s always telling me about Jesus. I’m going to tell you, I’m going tell you about my homeboy. I’m like, come on over Shirley. Come hang out with us. Shirley’s always figuring out how she can modify the gospel. And I’m like, no, you can’t do that Shirley. That’s not it. I still love you though. I will always love you.

55:05
So make sure you guys, I will put the information for the Betrayal podcast so you can listen to any other episodes that Andrea have. I’m a huge supporter in listening to other people podcasts because that’s how we were able to find out about this show on Hulu called Betrayal. Definitely go watch it, share your comments, tell us what you think, both positive and negative. We want to hear it all, especially about the topic that Kira brought up with

55:35
her marriage counseling and the information that she was shared. Let me hear some of your thoughts and anybody else that did go to marriage counseling because I didn’t go to marriage counseling. So I don’t even know what marriage counseling looks like. But for those of you who have, if you had a different experience, please share that so we can hear if it’s all the same out there. Maybe it’s like a certain thing they have to follow. I don’t know.

56:04
if it’s a certain guide that has to be followed. But I wanna hear what your experience is like with marriage counseling and do you feel that it should involve more information like Kira said, which include possible traumas that may come forth in a relationship later on in life. But anyhow, we always wanna thank you for listening. We appreciate you. Remember to like, subscribe, go to the website, share.

56:32
Until the next episode, have a good one, guys. Thank you for tuning into the show. you want to continue the conversation or share your takeaways, head on over to the website or join us on social media. I want to hear from you. Don’t forget to rate and subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode. Chat with you soon.