00:00

when you’re mature enough to feel as though you two cannot be together anymore for the re whatever the reason may be. I think that’s I think that’s strength in itself. Why? Because as longer things are happening amicably because you don’t want a nasty divorce and typically it tends to go in that direction because we live in a world where people think everything is forever and

00:28

although I am optimistic, but I’m also realistic. And there’s two ways relationships end. That’s either separation and divorce or death. So nothing is forever. At some point in time, something’s going to happen and we need to be realistic about that.  Welcome back to The Shirley Show. I am your host Shirley.  Our discussions are going to be ranging from personal life experiences,

00:55

infidelity, trust, forgiveness,  sex, heartbreak, self-love, and so much more. Let’s dive in, pull up a seat, make sure you’re cozy, and get ready to be challenged and encouraged while you learn with me, your virtual girlfriend. Welcome back to another episode of Shirley’s Show. And today we are going to be discussing separation and divorce, why society sees it negatively.  One of the topics of discussion, well,

01:23

One of the two things that came to mind was why is staying unhappy praise more than choosing peace? And also why is divorce seen as a failure, but suffering in silence seen as strength? As we all know in this day and age, especially with social media, we normally hear about many announcements of people divorcing and separated. The recent big one that was on social media that I know of, of course, there’s a lot others.

01:51

was Desmond and Christy. We heard them divorcing. And then there’s another girl out there that does makeup and I forgot her name and she made this announcement that she was divorcing her husband. Either way, there’s a positive and negative to both individual sides and immediately people look at as sadness. But in my eyes, I also feel like when you’re mature enough to feel as though you two cannot be together anymore for the rest.

02:20

whatever the reason may be,  think that’s, I think that’s strength in itself. Why? Because as longer things are happening amicably, because you don’t want a nasty divorce and typically it tends to go in that direction because we live in a world where people think everything is forever.  And although I am optimistic, but I’m also realistic and there’s two ways relationships end.

02:49

that’s either separation and divorce or death. So nothing is forever. At some point in time, something’s going to happen and we need to be realistic about that. So the first topic I wanted to talk about was when did leaving become a weakness? And I wanted to use my own example in my relationship in 2014 and in 2018,  Kalief and I separated. 2014 we separated for a month,  2018 we separated for

03:18

three months. So although those were short separations in a different span of time, we’ll talk about that. So in 2014, when Khalifa and I separated, it was towards the end of the year. It was around October of 2014 to be exact, because that was the day my stepdaughter was born. That was not the day correction. That was the month that she was born. So that’s when that separation took place.

03:44

I wanna also take it back a few months. I found out in January, 2014, she was expecting.  I immediately, like my depression immediately kicked in right away. For me, depression looks like, I know we talked about it in the first season, the first 12 episodes, I talked about how much weight I had lost in that episode because at the time, Kira, you and I did not know each other. So I lost an excessive amount of weight.

04:11

which resulted in me being extremely depressed. I think at the time I probably was somewhere between 130 and 140 and I got down to 118 pounds because I just wasn’t eating. My appetite completely shut down. I also took a hiatus from work. I was off of work for the whole month of March, April and May for depression. Now there’s a part of me in the past, if you had approached me about it, I would be upset.

04:38

would be a bit of ashamed and embarrassed to talk about some of these things, but now I am happy that I took accountability and I separated myself from a place I didn’t need to be.  For those of you that do know, outside of this podcast, I work for a major airline as a flight attendant, and I could not bear being around a whole bunch of people, whole bunch of passengers, being around coworkers,  trying to maintain my sanity when deep down inside I was

05:08

breaking down.  So I had to separate myself and being home was the best thing for me to do. Of course, Kaleef was very encouraging to the best that he could be at that moment. And after three months, I went back to work. The frightening part, now, I know in the past, Kara, we talked about our job being a positive when we’re in situations that we want to remove ourselves from.

05:37

but the trauma for me as well was leaving work and not being there knowing that a lot of the actions that took place were taking place while I was gone.  all the, yes. So although I was relatable, happy to be away, but I suffered from that anxiety.  it was, I wouldn’t even say it was anxiety. It was my mind just going like, girl, you don’t know what he gonna do.

06:04

You don’t know what he’d be going to do. And at this point, I do know what he’s going to do because he has to keep in contact with her because she is with child. So there’s going to be contact even though I don’t want it. So now we’re fast forwarding.  October comes, we separate.  And the separation was not for a long time, but he left the house. He went and stayed with his cousin and

06:33

that lasted roughly about maybe three and a half weeks.  So both separations, the one that occurred in 2014 and 2018, he left the house both times. That’s how it kind of Yes, he left the house both times for both situations. I stayed in the house because it just made a lot more sense because of course we had two children. So it was easier for me to stay in the house and he went and stayed with family both times.

07:01

The second time, I’m not a hundred percent sure. think it was between family and friends, but either way, both times he’s the one that removed himself from the situation.  they were,  both situations were similar,  identical.  was due to the infidelity and that situation in general. That’s what it was due to primarily because I didn’t feel like I was able to handle the situation that I thought I

07:30

thought I could handle because the hard part about infidelity that people don’t talk about, there’s a lot of waves and ups and downs. There are great moments. And then there are moments where you’re like, I think this is absolutely too much for me and I absolutely cannot deal with this anymore. You know, I don’t know if I’m strong enough to handle the fact that you have to consistently communicate with this person on a daily basis because you share a child with her. And although I’m realistic about that and I know

08:01

It needs to happen, but it’s extremely uncomfortable for me. So that’s the reason why the separation took place because I needed you to get away from me so I can see.

08:14

Did I miss you? Did I want this to move forward? And I wanna try to put it into words so people can understand why we separated. We separated number one because I needed it. He wasn’t happy about it, but because I told him I just can’t bear you being around me, knowing that you have to have contact with this individual. So now I feel like I am consistently sharing my man with another woman that I.

08:42

completely despised of, so that was hurtful.  So when we separated, it allowed me to reflect. It wasn’t no big boom. And I don’t want people to expect like there was this big lightning bulb or the separation, you know,  was so magical and that’s why we got back together. No, we got back together because each and every time we each were

09:10

willing to do the work that needed to be done to move forward with the relationship. We love each other very much, but in this type of situation, it’s a lot deeper than love.  It’s,  can I say? Because although we loved each other, Kira, it was beyond love. It was very similar to like,

09:40

Okay.

09:43

We were gone from each other and I did miss him as crazy as it sounds. And sometimes I go back and play with these emotions and I’m like, well, how did you miss him? But yet every time he talked to this girl, it made you sick inside and you didn’t want to be around him. I had to figure out that was a personal issue that I had to figure out how to deal with because it, it, it’s something that had to happen because now a child was in the play.

10:12

I had to be the one to do the work. Rather it’s prayer, rather it’s therapy, rather it’s exercising, reading scripture,  reading books. I had to do the work required so I can figure out what type of healing do I need so I don’t have to be so anxious knowing the fact that he’s reaching out to this individual. And it wasn’t anything about sexual activities. It’s just the fact that he had to contact her.  Connection. Yeah.

10:42

It’s so that connection. Yeah. So I guess for me, when did leaving becoming a weakness?  Leaving is not a weakness, to go back to that question. As an adult, when you are truly aware that things are not right and the puzzle is not fitting the way it used to, it is completely okay to separate yourself.

11:08

This is somebody you’re around every day, all the time. You’re growing together. At the time, Kaleef and I were 30 and 31. Mind you, we are two people that have been together since we were 14 and 15.  are 15 years later, we are not the same individuals. Trauma has happened in our relationship.  So I was knowledgeable to know that

11:38

We need a breather. I’m not saying we need to leave each other, but we need a breather. We need to understand that.

11:47

Do we still wanna be together?  Or do we need to walk away from what doesn’t serve us anymore and we just need to be friends and do it in the most amicable way possible?

11:58

So what are your thoughts and when did leaving become a weakness? Do you have an example to share?

12:06

I have a lot of thoughts on this. Do you feel that it is though?

12:13

No, I think first I’ll say like, I hate that this happened to you. I remember when you first shared it with me and my heart was just breaking for you. And I think something you said earlier is like, what happens is we have moments of hope and basically moments of despair. So it’s like, you have all this hope like, okay, we can get through this. We can stay together. And then you have those moments of despair, like, oh my God, he’s going to be connected to this woman. And I don’t know if I can deal with this.  And it ebbs and flows, right?

12:43

I think where the leaving becomes a failure part from society is like,  it’s rooted in a lot of things. I think it’s rooted in tradition. I think it’s rooted in like religion.  You have to also consider culturally for black Americans, for Caribbean Americans. A lot of times the woman was not the breadwinner. So she had to stay.

13:13

I think now in 2020s and on, know, our generation of millennials is basically like rewriting that narrative. Like, I don’t have to stay here.

13:27

can make my own money.  And something you said earlier was really important is like, have to know, basically, I think what you were saying, the way I understood is like, you have to know your limits, right? You understood that I am not in a place mentally to be at work. And you took three months off. And I’m assuming that during that three months, you were in therapy, you were doing the work, like that’s all an individual thing, right? If someone has made the decision that they don’t want to continue on in their marriage,

13:57

I don’t even necessarily think from my personal perspective that that’s a failure. I think it’s more of a strength. I think it takes a lot of courage to leave,  especially if you’re used to a certain life or financially, like you have that support. It’s scary to leave.  So I think society has kind of moved also from,  know, if you divorce, it’s a failure. I think it’s probably like 50-50.

14:27

And then I think there’s another portion of it where it’s like, girl, you not have to stay in that marriage. Why are you staying? Do you know what saying?  So I kind of think that’s where it stems from. I think it stems from tradition. I think it stems from religion. I think it stems from just how it was in the sixties where these women couldn’t leave. And so if they got divorced, then it was like, what did you do wrong? You’re right about that because that’s a good point to make that back in the day, women did not work.

14:56

So financially they had no place to go. Absolutely no place to go.  So I can’t leave him because unless I’m going back to my parents’ house, if they’re still alive and if you have a good relationship with them, where else am I gonna go? So that plays a huge role.  And that is changing drastically because a lot of women these days are the breadwinner or it’s truly a 50-50 setup.

15:26

Or they’re like, okay, well, now I got to hustle and I got to live a different life so I can have peace of mind.  Yeah, that’s true. That’s true. The other one I have is who benefits from people saying in an unhealthy relationship? What are your thoughts on that before I start? Who benefits from an unhealthy relationship? It’s a big question because the topic is

15:53

separation and divorce why society sees it as such a negative.  And the thing is a lot of times you see this society sees it as a failure. Oh, you couldn’t do anything to make your relationship last. What happened? Why couldn’t y’all stay together? You know, y’all been together for 10, 15 some odd years and all of a sudden y’all walking away. So who benefits from staying in an unhealthy relationship is the big question. And in actuality, no one, because

16:22

What’s going on? If it’s unhealthy, which is bad to say, somebody might be sneaking around because sexual activity might be extremely low. And we all know how important that is in a relationship.  Two, communication obviously is awful. And sometimes you already struggle in that to begin with. So communication is awful in the relationship and limited talking or

16:51

You guys are not sharing how you feel.  Everyone’s quiet and that’s not a good place to be. You can’t be quiet in a relationship. You have to be able to be comfortably to be able to share, know, babe, I’m feeling this. What are your thoughts? Let’s talk about this and your partner has to be able to handle that.  So those are two negatives that are happening. So those are the two unhealthies right there. What do you have to add to that?

17:19

I no one benefits from that. I also think that people who decide to have separation or divorce, I don’t think that’s a decision that most people take lightly. I don’t think they, there might be people who make an emotional decision, right? Who are like, I’m not doing this anymore, I’m done, right? I also would assume that there is also a group of people that have tried so many things before they get to that point, right?

17:48

Like they’ve done the work, they’ve tried, and it’s just not working because there’s gotta be work on both sides. And if one person is doing more of the work and the other person is not showing up, at some point we’re gonna lead down a path where we’re lacking intimacy, we’re lacking communication. And I mean, intimacy in all the ways,  like sex, having conversation, being vulnerable with each other, like all of those things help build the relationship.

18:15

I don’t think anyone benefits. don’t even believe in staying together for children because what kind of relationship do you model for your children if it’s unhealthy? I don’t think anyone benefits from that. Not the people involved, not the families, not the children. I think if anything,  it causes more damage. I remember when our parents sat us down to tell us that they were getting divorced. And I think they were surprised that we were kind of

18:43

Like we had a sigh of relief because we’re like, good, maybe you guys will be happier.  old were you? How old are the three of you? I was, I believe I was 15 at the time. And me and my sisters are four years apart.  So for me, I was like, yeah, good. Like I wasn’t a little kid and I, you know, I was old enough to know what was going on and to see. I think my parents did a really good job though.

19:11

protecting us and shielding us from things that we didn’t need to know about. Even to this day, as an adult, I don’t know all the things that went on in my parents’ marriage, and I don’t need to. But I remember just feeling like when they finally had that conversation with us, I was like, good, then maybe you guys will be happier,  not together.  And it was difficult when they separated.  And I think they were both going through their own kind of, I wouldn’t say depression, but they were each going through their own

19:40

variety of emotions.  Now, like as a married woman and with a child, I don’t have three children, right? But I could consider like my child is very young if I were to get divorced, right? So that would be a lot more to try to explain in an age-appropriate way versus like a 15-year-old like me who understands like, yeah, they’re not gonna be together.  So I don’t think it benefits anyone.

20:09

staying no when you’re not happy. A few bullet points I wanted to focus on is some of the negatives is religious and community pressures,  fear of being judged or labeled as a failure, social media showing perfect relationships. This is why you have to be let me go into that but hiding pain and culture expectations around marriage lasting no matter what.

20:37

So those are the things that when I ask the question of who benefits from people staying in unhealthy relationships, those are some bullet points to think about because no one’s benefiting. No one benefiting. If you guys will be better off as friends, then maybe you should consider doing that instead of forcing yourself to say in something and ask yourself why, because you’re comfortable and you don’t wanna be made uncomfortable because a lot of times it’s

21:06

Um,  it’s all, know,  like prime example, we’ve been together 28 years. We are all each other know outside of the bullshit. Caliph and I have done, but we are what we know. We are our comfort level, but that’s also not a reason to stay in something that’s not serving us anymore. But where the question of, um, the bullet point of social, social media showing perfect relationships, but hiding pain.

21:36

This is one of the reasons why even now I’m very mindful about what I post when it comes to Khalif and I. And I’m not saying that, and the podcast is a great example that even if I do post a simple picture of Khalif and I going out to dinner, but this podcast is a pure example of, okay, this girl has no problem sharing the bullshit that goes on behind the scenes.

22:02

And even though people may feel like they know a lot of what’s going on in my life, I always tell people, no, sweetheart, you only know about 1 % of what’s really going on here behind the scenes. You may feel like you’re really part of our relationship, but you’re only part of 1%. So that’s why I feel comfortable. What I’m sharing. Exactly. There’s a lot I choose not to share on this podcast. I will never share on this podcast.  And Kaleef and I will take to our grave because it’s not your business.

22:32

This is why also in social media, like social media is so negative. Yeah, but you’re in control of what you’re sharing. So how negative could it be? Do you feel shame in what you’re putting out there?  But you know, that’s a big point.  Social. mean, social media is a highlight reel.  It’s not real.  It’s not real.  Because if we were to post all the negative moments, then people would be like, why are they posting all their business on social media? So it’s like, there’s no win.

23:02

And I think like how you are, I just don’t post anything anymore.  You don’t post nothing anymore. You’re like, I’m not posting that one direct, that one picture. I’m over it. And I think it’s also triggering for me a lot. Like I don’t use it.  I’m probably about to go dark again. I wanted to just wait until this was done to share stuff. But for me, it’s also like, I remember feeling like

23:31

I’m sharing stuff, I’m tagging you. So the people that you’re talking to and having inappropriate relationships with can see that I’m tagging you, can see that you are in a marriage and they still, it’s like, it made me feel like foolish and like an idiot and like, oh, they can laugh and be like, oh, she thinks her husband’s so good. Meanwhile.

23:59

I’m here talking to him and sending him pictures and all the things. So for me, it totally took away my love for social media and the fact of it’s just not real. Oh, that’s interesting. And you know what? I never thought about it. Even though I know… So, Khalif and I don’t follow each other on Instagram. We follow each other on TikTok, but not Instagram.

24:29

but also my page is public on Instagram for the reason of because of this podcast.  also I also feel like why am I making my page? I always have this concept of why is my page private?  I mean, what am I sharing that is a private moment that I necessarily don’t want people to see because again, it is social media.

24:55

So I have no problem with my page being public, but I think some people, you know, I guess see it differently of it’s private because it’s only for my friends and family and not strangers. I guess. It could be work related to like, Oh, that’s right. Because now with social media, a lot of school, like a lot of teachers at my son’s school, their pages are private because you know, you’ll find them and they like, you don’t need to be known on my personal business.  So.

25:20

I think there’s a lot of layers. guess there is a lot of layers, but I also feel like what are you posting that is so private that you don’t want people to see? Maybe their families or children. I know for me that was really hard in the beginning. Like I didn’t want to overshare with Zaire and I know like he’s going to have this social media footprint.  So I only wanted like people that I knew or were friends to see him, but it was also like, I really can’t control.

25:47

once it’s on the internet, it’s on the internet.  So it just kind of became this losing battle. I get why people don’t show their children at all. Like I understand that too.  But I don’t know, guess for me mostly I had mine private for work. Cause like I didn’t want people who worked at our job to know all the things that I was doing.

26:18

That’s understandable.  I was like posting like Christian stuff and arguing with everybody and my page was very like political too. And I just was like, I don’t want everyone in that world. Okay.  Okay. But now I don’t care. I’m just like, I don’t post anything anyway. So there’s nothing for you to see. I get that. get that.  get, you know what?  Sharing it with me in that light, I could respect and understand that. I guess for me,

26:47

when I think of private and public, I am not posting anything that I don’t want you to see or know. That’s my thought process.  Right, like I’m not gonna post it at all. I don’t care who sees it, I’m just not gonna post Exactly, because if I don’t want you to see it, I’m not posting it, end of story.  Especially in the light of when it comes to the children. Even when I started this podcast, that was a big topic that went through my head of-

27:16

One day your kids are going to be big and they’re going to know their mom has a podcast. And do you want them to hear some of the things that you’re sharing? But for me, I want to be genuine with my children. I understand some parents walk around thinking like my children are always going to think I’m perfect. And I am never going to share with them anything bad that ever happened.

27:41

But that’s not real either. I am not perfect. I have make mistakes and my children, I want them to be aware of that rather they listen through it on the podcast or we talk about it together. I want them to know that I’m not perfect.  Daddy’s not perfect. No one’s perfect.  know, hopefully this podcast is educational for them. The nice thing is I always like when they like something that I post. I’m like,

28:10

Oh, look at my babies. I’m actually excited. Like, OK, they’re watching a clip. They’re not really like, they’re fans, but in a different way. They’re not, they’re really not listening to this podcast at all. They’re just like, something else my mom doing.  And you like it. So, sorry, some of So that was cute. So that’s another good thing when you’re like, you know, people don’t want their kids to see certain things or don’t want their

28:36

kids to be seen on social media, which I understand that part of it. Now,  do people whisper about separation, but celebrate engagements? Which is, know, when it comes to getting married, it is a big ordeal, a very big ordeal. There’s the bachelorette party,  is there an engagement party too? I don’t know.

29:07

Yeah, sometimes, yeah, people have engagement. Okay, so we have engagement party, bachelorette party, all this is happening before the actual wedding. It’s a big to do. And then when it comes time for a, we’ll say divorce, because I feel like separation is not a bad thing in my eyes. If you do need to separate from each other, I think there should be a short term and long term goal. shouldn’t be necessarily a separation going into, I think six months should be the max.

29:37

If you’re going longer than six months, y’all need to reevaluate the situation and see, we even need to move further with each other at this point? But if you’re deciding to divorce someone,  it’s always,  it is a whisper. There’s shame behind it.  You don’t want to talk about it. And then when you do talk about it, immediately it’s bullet points, negative bullet points after negative bullet points after negative bullet points.

30:06

You never hear like positive things like, I’ll give you an example. You know, my husband and I just think like, it’s time for a divorce. We’ve just outgrown each other. You know, we want to do different things. The conversation never starts off positive. It’s always this motherfucker.  I can’t stand them and I just need to leave him. He’s a complete shit or she’s just no good. I can’t stand her. She gets on my last nerves. It’s always a negative when you hear some

30:36

Generally, I’m going to say generally not always let me scratch that off. But generally speaking, it is always a negative when you hear about people getting a divorce. It’s never a pleasant conversation. And it always surprises me is like, well, were you realistic about this from the start? Because at the end of the day, if things did go left, did you have that conversation with your partner? Or did you were just living on cloud nine and thought things would never go wrong?

31:06

I think back to Megan Good and her ex-husband, what was his name? The pastor guy. Oh yes, that’s right. I know who you’re talking about. Megan Good and the pastor. We’ll just call him the pastor. I don’t remember his name. But I remember when they announced their divorce and their statements were, I thought, very kind, even when they were interviewed subsequent months, years later about it.

31:37

They never spoke negatively about each other. And I really always admired that because like you said, generally there’s always like a lot of negative connotations surrounding people saying why they’re divorced. Of course, they are public figures and they don’t have to give us a reason and all the things. And even going back to Christian Desmond,  like I think his statement to me was kind of lame.

32:07

I saw what he had posted on Instagram and later Christy like made a TikTok and I just remember being like, you know, it’s, think it’s difficult when you share so much of your marriage with the public that then when things start to dissolve or fall apart, you kind of feel like you have a responsibility to give an explanation. But how you give the explanation I think is important, especially with what you’re saying. Like generally it is very negative. I would hope like.

32:36

in my situation, if I were to get divorced, if I’m being honest, if I were to tell you, my friends, my family, like six months from now, like, hey, we’re getting divorced. I don’t think anybody would be surprised just because of the things that we have gone through that have led up to it. But I don’t think it would be me being like,

33:03

He can’t get it together. Like I’m over this, da da da. It would just be like, we tried and I’m tired of trying. That makes sense.  But.  So I think there’s like. That’s how it is. People can have different, yeah, different experiences and how they communicate it, like how they share it.  But the other thing is too, like I think there was also that layer of secrecy where.  Again, like you get invited to the wedding, you get.

33:34

invited to the bridal shower, you get invited to an engagement party, and then you’re like, oh, I haven’t seen them or I don’t know what’s going on. And then you find out they’re divorced. Like that happened with someone I knew. like, I didn’t even, she got married the same year I did. I’m like, I had no idea that they were divorced.  So again, people don’t owe us an explanation, but I think what you’re saying is right. Like there’s all of this positive surrounding like getting married, but then when the marriage dissolves, like

34:02

No one shouts from the rooftops, hey, we got divorced. I think there’s a lot of shame and fear of judgment and all the things and questions. Like people are afraid, like, what are they gonna ask? Are they gonna blame me? Or they’re gonna feel like, well, why couldn’t they get it together? You know, I think there’s so many things about why people don’t share it as openly. I’m very different where for me, I would just be like, yeah, it’s a wrap.

34:29

Now all the details, don’t know if I would share right away. I mean, I’ve shared so much in the podcast, but I think like.

34:38

I don’t know, like, I don’t know if I would make like an announcement on social media like, hey, meet Adrienne or divorce now. You know?  That’s not really my style, especially because I don’t use it like that anymore anyway. But I don’t think I would be afraid to like tell people like that are my friends or that I see at work or whatever like that.  But yeah, I think it does generally have a really negative connotation.  Yeah. Oh, shit, I was gonna say something,  girl.

35:08

And I just lost my train of thought. No, you’re fine. You were talking about the pastor. I had seen something come up not too long ago about him making a comment about women flaunting themselves. Is that what you were talking about? Well, I saw that recently. Okay.  yeah, and I think he was saying something about her thirst traps and he was like, why are you still thirst trapping when you’re married?

35:36

I didn’t, he didn’t say that until recently, which also surprised me if he even said that, cause I read it. So I don’t know for sure that. the clip that he did say it.  I did see the clip and he did say it. Now, of course he didn’t say any names and it could be just people insinuating he was talking about Megan because he did not mention Megan.  But if that’s how you met your woman.

36:04

Now is not the time for you to try to tame your woman. It just doesn’t work like that. And men need to understand that.  although it-  think they’re going to change you. That goes both ways.  It doesn’t work like that. just doesn’t work. Change takes work,  consistent work, because for you to really see change, it takes a good six months of work. So it doesn’t happen overnight.  It’s you’ve got to be patient with the work. That’s what I wanted to bring up because

36:33

I was like, you didn’t really hear much about it. They just announced it. But I was like, then when I saw him put that clip out and then he, you know, they immediately, I think within a year of their divorce, they both got into relationships. But again, you know, there’s no timeframe really. You just want to assume that the person is in a healed place before they enter another relationship.  So that’s what you want. And not married. And not married. Definitely right.

37:03

I’m gonna do some breakdowns here of why some people stay that I put here in my notes.  Children, finances, which we had talked about that. Fear of starting over, which we mentioned that as well. Family pressure,  image and reputation, which is, I thought about that and that alone is huge. But it also goes along the lines with, I feel like that.

37:31

is also like family pressure and fear of starting over.  All those three align and the comfort and familiarity that we also discussed as well because you’re comfortable in the situation that you’re in. Children also play a huge role in that. And I want to say something at this time when it comes to separation and divorce, although Kaleef and I have no intention of getting a divorce anytime soon.

37:58

But I am very realistic in my thinking and I always have been.  Of course, I want to grow old with this man. To the day I die, he dies, whoever comes first. One of us is going to go someday. But I will tell you in the season that I am now in my life, Kara, there’s a part of me that’s really been like, how does it feel to live alone? And I say that in the most loving way possible. It has nothing to do

38:27

with my family, my immediate family. When I say immediate family, I’m talking about husband and two children. Yes, because you also have to understand from the time I left my parents’ house, Khalifa and I immediately moved in together. So I’ve never lived alone. I don’t know what that feels like.  Although many times I am alone because of the work that I do outside of this podcast.  So I’m by myself many times when I’m away.

38:56

but it’s different from actually walking into the house and knowing it’s only me in that space.  These days, in my big 40s, I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately. I’m like, what would it feel like to live alone if I walked into the house and I just had no one but myself, especially now that my kids are older? And it’s just like, do you ever think about that?  You know, when I first…

39:24

thought about that was when I heard that Cheryl Ralph is that her name? Cheryl? I know who you’re talking about whose husband lives in Philadelphia and I think she’s in California and she lives in LA. And it’s been years. Oh, that’s beautiful. It’s been years.  she’s like, it works for us and we like it. And I’m like, not even just like

39:44

living separately, living on two different co- They live on two different co- Oh my gosh. what I’m understanding, I didn’t look deep into it and she didn’t talk into it much, but I guarantee you their finances are probably not together. Maybe they might have one joint account that they’ve agreed to have and a certain amount of money goes in there for God knows whatever reason, because I think they are married, but they just live separately. They’re married, yeah. I think that was the first time I heard that and I was like, oh, like,

40:13

Marriage can look however you want it to look. I think me from like a biblical standpoint, yeah, there are things in marriage that I believe are supposed to happen or not happen, right? Like we’re not supposed to be sleeping with other people when we’re married, having inappropriate relationships with other people when we’re married. But that doesn’t necessarily mean we have to be in the same house or in the same room. Like me and Adrienne used to joke a lot because I saw this, I don’t know, some show where they had two

40:42

suites and the husband and wife slept separate because the guy had like a CPAP machine and she was like, I can’t sleep in there. Like I cannot literally go to sleep. And I was like, oh my gosh, wait, we can have separate rooms. Like, you know, it’s just like,  I think everyone’s marriage is so individual. Like we shouldn’t put all of it into a box. I think if you’re doing things from a spiritual standpoint and you

41:11

Obviously are not in an open marriage or things like that. There has to be so much trust involved to live separately.  I don’t think it’s bad.  I think that if I had a relationship that was really rooted in trust and I was never given a reason to distrust my spouse,  I don’t see why that wouldn’t.

41:41

I think maybe with a small child, no. But if I have older children, adult children,  and, hey, I want to live in the city. I want to live in the country. Okay, well, I’ll see you when I see you. I mean, there’s so many things.  Personally, I don’t think it’s bad. think it’s whatever works for the individual marriage.  I do, though, it’s like…

42:10

I also feel like I lived a really independent life before I got married. I lived by myself, I lived with roommates. So I had those different experiences, which is also why I think people encourage us, especially my mom was like encouraging me and my sisters to live our lives before we like settled down. And I’m glad I did because I was able to have those experiences. So I’m not like longing for them now. Do you know what I mean?

42:38

Um, I know what that felt like.  I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed all seasons. Like living with other people was nice. Um, living by myself was really nice. And for me, I think I get the by myself feel again, when I’m away at work.  Uh, so yours is different because it’s like, yeah, I’m away at work, but it’s not like mine, right? Where me, I’m like, I’ve already had that. I’ve experienced it.

43:08

For me, it’s like when I want alone time, I go to work.  And that kind of fills my cup. That recharges my batteries, you know.  So I get it because you haven’t experienced it. So it’s kind of something that you’re like curious about. But I feel like if you and Khalif were at a place where you’re like, you know what, can we just get two apartments?

43:34

I don’t think that’s bad, Shirley. I really don’t.  Because if I’m being honest, if I’m being honest, we had discussed that before we moved here. Because we were considering possible separation, what that might look like.  And because we were also moving my in-laws in, which is a whole nother topic for another day.  But I was like, well, what if we just do two apartments?

44:03

then we can each have our own space.  And financially, it would have been tight.  And that’s why we decided not ultimately not to do it. I don’t think he really wanted to do it. I think for him, it was leaning more into divorce if we did that.  I’m happy we didn’t do it just because I think financially it wouldn’t have been a good decision. We would have been living like check to check and really stressed and I don’t, that’s not how I want to live.  So.

44:32

We didn’t, but I think just something like that, like I’m not mad at it. Like if y’all are like, you know what? I want to live in two apartments right next to each other, across the hall. I don’t know.  And then you was like, you have your own space and if it works, it works. It’s like, there’s no, no one can pass judgment on that because you not necessarily don’t want to be in the same place, but it’s like, I also want to have this experience.

44:58

We can do it for a year or if it’s gonna help you save money. I mean, there’s like a lot of different things. If you think it’s gonna bring you guys closer. I’m not one to be like, that’s ridiculous. I’m like, if it works for you, do it.  Before I comment,  was that your dog? You better let that boy out breathing all heavy like that. Yeah, he’s right there. I be sounding like Lucy when she in front of my face breathing all heavy. I’m like, I’m like.

45:28

Because at first I heard the… It could have been me. No, it wasn’t you. Because I heard the lawnmower at first. But then I’m like, what is that breathing heavy? That must be that dog.  It’s like everything was happening at once.  Could you hear banging? I’m like, what is the banging? I didn’t hear the banging. I heard the lawnmower and I hear her now. You better go let her… It’s her, him. You better go let him out. Him. I just Oh, you do?  He… Uh-huh, before we go on.

45:52

He, um… But he’s been quiet the whole time, but I was like, why is he breathing? He was still… Oh, okay. Yeah, he was sleeping. And then he was dreaming, so he was That’s why. Running, you know, they’re like running in his sleep. You like, you’re asleep. Okay. Because I was like, that poor dog.  Listen,  the law, I was like, everything is happening right now while I’m trying to record. I saw the lawn people pull up. I’m like, okay, they’re going to be blowing. They’re doing that. The guy’s downstairs fixing my door. So I hear all this… The banging I didn’t hear. Just the lawn mower.

46:21

Then I’m looking at the camera, because then my camera’s going off and I’m like, somebody’s coming to replace my washing machine. I’m like, please don’t come right now. I’m trying to not be distracted. And I’m like, the thing I took my medicine, because it was just a hundred things.  Okay. Yeah. Back to, back to what I said. I’m not here to judge anyone who wants to live like that. And honestly, when I heard about Sherri Lee, Ralph and Sherr. I was just like,  whatever her name is. Thank you.

46:51

I don’t know why you call her that. It’s okay. Yeah, I was just like. the Lee’s the marriage name, right? I don’t know. I don’t know either. I think her name is Ralph her maiden. No. I have no idea. I don’t know if it’s her stage name, her real name. Oh, okay. Okay. I’m not a hard. I mean, to correct what I’ve. Okay, so here’s the thing. It’s been an urge I’ve been having for a while.

47:14

but it’s not like a negative urge where like I can’t stand my people. But I will tell you, I don’t want to live separately. No, I want to be with him. So when we move,  the setup that I want to create for us is I will have my woman cave and he will have his man cave because what I also am thinking like our bedroom is not going to have a TV. So that’s why I’m like, if we each have our own space,

47:42

to entertain ourselves how we would like. When we come into that bedroom in that intimate, the only thing you should have is like your phone or a tablet because once that goes off, that’s it.  Yeah, I love that. So that’s what I’m thinking about for our next set. I want separate rooms,  I feel like we can still have separate, but also create some type of room.

48:06

for intimacy purposes or, you know, all of that. But I still want my separate space. This is mine. Don’t come, don’t bother me. This is all me for me to set up however my heart desires. And you do what you want. You’re-  Do do you think that will like fulfill your, your kind of itch of like wanting to experience living alone? Because you don’t have that space right now. So it’s like.

48:32

I don’t have it, I don’t know what it’s like, but maybe if I… The only way I’m gonna experience that is if he’s deceased before me. If he’s deceased before me, it’s not going to be any different because that is never going to be that. It would only have to be me and then my kids would come visit because my plan is I would get a two bedroom, a room just for emergency purposes if my kids need a place to stay. I know I have two, but I might…

49:01

just get a pullout couch because I’m not gonna get a three bedroom for what and pay all that money like especially if you guys are grown adults like. But wait I’m sorry your dad still lives separate I thought your dad was with you. You’re not gonna keep oh so he is. We’re not including him. Girl you know he ain’t included in that.  He’s never included in the drink even though.

49:25

He’s never included in the dream, even though when we do move, this is why I’m telling you to answer your question. It’s when he’s deceased, when Khalifa is deceased. And then I got to figure out what I’m going to do with him because half the time I don’t need that. I forgot that he’s still around.  know?  Okay. I’m trying to cause I’m like,  you ain’t this nothing. This is the reason why I tell you like, I would love to live alone, just me, but that it’s never going to be like that unless they’re both gone.

49:58

So yeah. And then you’ll miss them.  I’m gonna miss them. Definitely. I ain’t lie to you. I will miss them.  But I’ll miss my father, but I will miss Khalif. I’m not gonna lie. I’ll miss Khalif. And when Khalif is gone, I’ll be honest with you, Kira.  I don’t know if I am going to… Do I want a companion? Yes, but…

50:22

The way that I am right now, I’m rigid. I’ll guess I’m in. And I don’t like, don’t want anybody in my space. So if Kaleef does go before I do, right now I have no intent in dating at all whatsoever. I shouldn’t say not dating. I have no intent of living with somebody and I don’t want you living with me. We can be really great friends with benefits and we can see each other for that purposes and you can read between the lines. You know what I mean by benefits.

50:51

But other than that, I don’t want to intertwine our finances.  I don’t want to really get to know your family. You can let them know, yeah, I’m talking to this lady. That’s it. And that’s what I’ll tell my kids. My kids don’t need to know who you are.  I’m over it.  So, you know, if something was to happen to him and I don’t want that to happen, I would love us to grow old together, but no, absolutely not. I have no desire to.

51:18

No, like don’t claim me as your girlfriend. No, absolutely not. No, we’re just friends with a little benefit. And then I’ma probably be grilling you to death. When the last time you slept with somebody, have you been tested? Maybe you should take the test first. Cause I’m that person. Like there’s too much going on these days. Like. Can I see, I’m thinking of you as an old woman. If something were to happen to him, my picture is like they’re old. And you don’t think as an old woman, I would need some sexual gratification?

51:48

Not the age that I’m were you thinking of the 80? Yeah, maybe that’s because that’s what I’m around right now, but I’m like, what else? You don’t think 80 year olds get it in?  No. Yeah, she said no.  Maybe, maybe certain ones. I don’t think so.  Oh,  yo, Kara is so funny. don’t know. Well,  that’s, the 80 and another less than 40 years, 37. Yeah, I think.

52:18

I think like with my 40th birthday coming up, I’m like, wow, I probably have a solid 40 more years left. Maybe, right? Maybe more, maybe less. And it’s like, I said to Adrienne,  like, you know, I don’t know if I want my next 40 years to be with you, if it’s gonna be like this. That’s transparency. Do you know how much mature you have to be to…

52:44

be able to talk to your partner like that and tell your partner that.  Emotional regulation needs to be at its best because he has to be able to handle it. And you have to be able to comfortably able to tell him that without fear of like him lashing out physically or something. Yeah. And I don’t think like, I’m not going to say that we’re in a great place because we’re not. think we’re still trying to figure things out, like what we’re going to do.

53:14

But I do say like, we do have a friendship there and I think that that’s what’s keeping our relationship positive and our relationship positive for our child and even the fact that like I took on this extra task that we were talking about before we started.  But yeah, I just, I feel like.

53:41

We have to be realistic about stuff. That’s why I don’t think there should be shame attached to.

53:48

or failure attached to people who want to separate or divorce.  think, I personally feel like I think it takes more courage. I read Miss Tina’s book, Beyonce’s mom, called Matriarch. It was really good. It was, I was very pleasantly surprised. But she talks a lot about her relationship with Matthew, their dad, her husband, and how there was red flags for a lot of years.

54:17

Um, with his dealings with women and da da da. And I mean, she was like, I think in her 50s, 60s, when she finally divorced from him.  And after they filed paperwork, they were still seeing each other. So they were like sneaking around, seeing each other.  Which I, which I thought was like cute and sad because there’s this like codependency there because they’ve been together longer than they’ve been separate, like literally more than half of their life they spent together.  So.

54:47

It was interesting to read from this mature woman’s perspective about how she finally got to the age where she’s just like, I don’t want to do this anymore. I think it’s that child that really tore Tina apart when that boy was born.  yeah. I don’t know. I didn’t look into it too much. I don’t know how Tina found out. And I don’t even know how old that child is now.  I’m not.

55:13

She doesn’t get into anything about the child. only speaks about women in general. But I think that was the big… Throughout the course in America. …breaking point for her. think, like, if I can look at it from Tina’s perspective, the infidelity is not what broke me. It’s the child. So I feel like I think that broke Tina. Because how long has they been since they divorced now? Has it been, like, 30 years? I don’t know. I don’t think it’s been that long.

55:43

Maybe 20,  25. I know Blue was already born. We already talked about, think this January just made Blue 14. And she was married to Richard Lawson. Exactly, for a short period of time.  So I’m going to say anywhere between 20 or 30 now they’ve been divorced. I don’t know how old that young boy is. I forgot, but I feel like that played a role. So the mental and emotional impact of unhealthy relationships, a few things. Loss of confidence is one.

56:13

Emotional exhaustion, I think is huge.  And we pointed some things out, especially poor communication falls into that. Delay dreams and goals. If you guys are not aligning with goals and dreams and on the same playing field, that is extremely detrimental. Anxiety, depression, and resentment. In the beginning of this podcast, I already talked about

56:38

the depression I went through and why we had to do a separation and resentment starting to feel a disgust for the person, which is definitely not good.  Modeling unhealthy love for children. And I always talk about this. Parents that always try to create this perfection.

57:02

for their kids. I also believe that is extremely unhealthy when your kids don’t see the fact that you do get upset, you do get angry, you do get mad on top of being happy. You just can’t, it is not realistic to show your kids that you are absolutely happy all the time. I think living by the example of showing children conflict in an age appropriate way,

57:32

And then showing them how you resolve conflict is how you model like being a human being for them.  Shielding them from all that, like you’re saying, that’s not healthy because then they have an unrealistic view of the world and how their relationship is supposed to be. They’re going to think, oh, it’s always supposed to be happy.  So whenever stuff goes wrong, they’re not going to know how to deal with it because it was never modeled for them.  Absolutely. That is absolutely correct.

58:00

What does staying in, what do you think staying in pain teach the next generation about love? You know, we always talk about generational curse,  generational curse.  I think for me,

58:17

What I don’t want my kids to do is model their father and I. I want them to have their own vision of their relationship. Their father and I have both fucked up in this relationship, but we have able to move past that.  I applaud us every day for that. Of course, we still have our personal struggles that we deal with.

58:47

but we have moved past that. But I don’t want the kids to feel as though the decision an either father made is the decision that they need to make. And that’s the only way possible. Because even if we decided to walk away from each other, again, this is what the podcast is about today. It’s still not a bad thing because we have to do what works for each other, what is healthy for both children.

59:20

And ultimately not what society wants to see or not our friends saying like, I’m rooting for y’all.  Yeah, but this rooting ain’t working.  just.  I prefer, I prefer like, I support whatever decision you make.  that’s, I have friends who are like, I support whatever decision. And then I have, oh no, I don’t. And then like, oh please, we, you know, it’s like all over the spectrum. But yes, I would appreciate that more. Like.

59:49

I respect whatever decision you have. Absolutely. Absolutely. Now we’re going to segue to some of the positives that we want to consider when reframing separation and divorce for our listeners to be considerate about. Shifting the narrative. Divorce as a growth and not as a failure. The fact that two people can realize that this is just not working anymore and we need to go our separate ways.

01:00:18

Do you know how much maturity that takes,  I think it’s courage too. I really think it takes a lot of, I’m serious. It takes so much maturity, so much courage. I agree 100%. Separation as choosing peace.  Separation is a start because it just gives you a little opportunity to be like, okay, now we’re two in separate places. However, that may look like one person goes to a family or one person goes rent a place.

01:00:45

That gives you an opportunity to see like, okay, do I wanna be by myself?  If this offering me bees, am I missing my person? Is it possible that I could work it out and we can shift this and look at it from a different angle? I also wanna, now granted I haven’t done research on this, I’m not a therapist, I’m not a relationship coach and counselor, every now and then I need to say this, but I feel like separation going into six months or more.

01:01:11

needs to be evaluated because if you’re now entering month seven, it’s like, what the hell is happening here? What are you guys doing? Yeah, what are we doing? Exactly.  I would agree with that. Healing as a courage, which is very true, giving each other time to heal in whatever way that looks like and new beginnings as a strength because if you start another new relationship, that’s not a negative either.

01:01:40

That’s not a bad thing to consider.  And here’s some other three bullet points I want to add is leaving can be self-respect because we don’t know what the situation or dynamic is and it’s you, you know, realizing like, okay, I realized that this didn’t serve me anymore. I’m removing myself. So that’s huge respect on your part.

01:02:08

Choosing peace is choosing health because we already know how stress can definitely be a health issue on us in different ways, or form if we’re not cognizant of that. And growth sometimes outgrows relationship because as we know, we are not the same people. We were 20 years ago, 10 years ago, or even five years ago. So is your partner keeping up with your growth as well? Because we’re growing as separate individuals.

01:02:36

And we need to make sure we’re meeting each other and matching the growth. So that’s huge.  So I wanted to add a few quick questions for our listeners, which I think are good takeaways. And that was, would you rather be alone in peace or together in pain? This is a good question to ask yourself. Do you think society rewards suffering?

01:03:03

in relationships, especially when you said, you know, when people are suffering in silence, when we mentioned about social media is a real, not reality, you know?  And the third one is staying always stronger than leaving. You know, that’s a good question to ask yourself. And I think also we have to remember not to beat each other up.  again,

01:03:30

I always like that we need to be realistic in our thinking.  Relationships are forever is a term that we use all the time. But in reality, we already know there’s two ways this we’re gonna go out in this relationship. And that is divorce or death. We just have to be realistic about that. But if you do stay in a long term relationship,

01:04:00

make sure it’s for the right reasons.  I don’t like to see people in pain. I don’t like to see resentment for your partner in a relationship. Like, I’ll give you a prime example.

01:04:16

There are times where, remember when I mentioned like, I would love to be alone?  Kaleef left for work this morning early, I had to go drop him off.

01:04:27

But now,  like, even though when he was here, I was like, ugh, I want to be by myself. Now that he’s gone, I’m like, ugh, where’s this guy at?

01:04:36

You know, it’s bullshit like that. We’re never satisfied. We’re never satisfied. And this is how I know like, OK, I still have feelings for you and I still get butterflies for you. Even though you piss me off.  Now, even though you’re at work, I’m like, I just want to sit next to you and you know that probably like when you come home and you know it probably would last like five, 10 minutes. I’m like, ah, get away from me. Like, why are you chewing so loud? Go upstairs. What are we doing? Why are we eating so loud?

01:05:05

Yeah.  So I just feel like you will know when you guys are just not serving each other anymore. Yeah. I think you’ll, I think for anyone who’s in that space, like considering or trying to figure it out.  Um, and I’m also speaking from experience. think you’ll know. You’ll know. I think at some point it’s either going to click for me and it’s like, okay, I’m going to press on and work through it.

01:05:35

and give this another shot or it’s going to be like, okay, I have done everything that I can do and I’m not happy anymore and whatever. Yeah. That’s true.  I think people,  think at least that’s what I’m hoping. don’t know. No, it’s the truth. And I know for you, you said like, there was no like lightning bolt or like light bulb moment. And so that’s, think for me, that’s the part that kind of scares me. Cause I think that’s what I’m waiting for. Like this just like.

01:06:04

Oh, okay, God, tell me what to do. And God is just like, chill out. I’m like, I don’t think that’s ever gonna come, Kira. See, that’s what I’m hoping for. That’s what I’m like, I’m hoping that will come.  But I think what will come, even if it’s not that clear, I think is just me being settled in whatever decision I make is what I would hope.  And like just walking in that being like, okay, this is the decision I made.

01:06:33

And that’s it. Like, and then getting the therapy based on the decision.  No, that’s very true. That’s it. We promote that a lot. Therapy is extremely important. So some key takeaways is just remember peace matters,  healing matters,  growth matters, and your happiness is valid, however that may look like. And the final message is sometimes relationships don’t end because people fail. So don’t automatically assume that you’re a failure. They end because people just finally choose themselves.

01:07:03

And that is not a negative thing. People just remember that choosing yourself is not a negative. Walking away from the partner you’ve been with for 10, 15, 20 years does not mean you failed at life. It’s just a readjustment. That’s all. Because we don’t ever say we fail at our jobs when we go to a new job. We don’t do that. So why do we always categorize relationships as failures when we move on to others? No, they’re not failures.

01:07:33

All right. They’re learning experiences. Absolutely.  Absolutely. So I do hope this podcast has some good takeaways for you today. And if any of our listeners out there are in a heat of a traumatic situation and maybe you’re in a separation or you’re talking about divorce, just take time to reflect. And if it does end up going that route, you’re not a failure. Just remember that you’re not a failure. Okay.

01:08:01

Anyhow, thank you for listening. Have a great one. Peace. Talk to y’all later. Thank you for tuning into the show. If you want to continue the conversation or share your takeaways head on over to the website or join us on social media. I want to hear from you. Don’t forget to rate and subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode.